Horizontal links

Saturday, 17 February 2018

Trading R' Us

Qian bei CW has got to have one of the simplest and clearest filing system for his blog posts.


I just file everything financial related into "financial literacy".

Today, with a bit of time on my hands, I've grouped my past trading related posts under this new "My interests" heading under - Trading R' Us.

Those of you who got a bit of trading blood under you may want to check it out. Just click under "Trading R' Us" and all 16 trading related posts will pop out.

Actually, there's not a lot of difference between traders and investors - just the time frame differs.

Many amateur traders are also "investors" by default. Hands up who never let a short term trade turned into a long term "investment"?

Look at those veteran retail investors who are doing well. See how many of them are also competent in the art of "trading around a core position"? 

There! Its never about the noun or "labelling".

Its always about the adjective.



  1. The difference is in the number of retail giving up on active trading or investing after one market cycle.

    1. CW,


      For trading, we just need 2 years. And maybe less to see we have "it" or not. I mean only 10% of traders make money. Period.

      For "investing", one market cycle is around 5-7 years. The one we are in is already more than 7 years.

      So we have retail "investors" who have never known a -50% drawdown...

      Although the price "breakdowns" of some of the stalwarts of STI - like SPH, Singtel, and ComfortDelgro - are beginning to cause some "self doubts" into their souls...

      While some have learnt the hard way you don't buy and hold cyclical plays like O&G and commodity counters...

      For a retail "investor" to throw in the towel and chop fingers, it will probably need to take at least 2 full bull/bear cycles - 10-20 years?

      Not everyone in our community will finish the race. Which is OK.

      There is more to life than just the accumulation of money.

      P.S. This comment was edited due to temperament's eagle eyes. Previously, I've wrongly typed "90%" of traders make money!? LOL!

      Anyone who has traded will know its 10% or less. Most inside the industry will even say the reality is closer to 5%...

  2. Hi alk,

    Money enough, can already. Enjoy life in a slow pace. I think that such aporoach will make life more meaningful. There are some who may not agree with such aporoach. I guess that it is different personality, different mindset. One shoe size cannot suit all personnel. The most important thing is to be happy to oneself. Do not bother with others' opinion.


    1. Ben,

      That's why I don't subscribe to the "vested interests" who exort everyone must "invest" or else!

      They sound a lot like insurance snake oils...

      There are many paths that lead to Rome. Hey! Some may not even want to go to Rome!


    2. SMOL,

      Well said. You hit the "spot". Everyone is entitled to their own preferences. There are instances whereby ppl expect others to follow their preferences and will chide them for their ignorances or short sightness in not following them. I advocate the free-willed spirit in which one can opt for their own preference. This is the way to go with respects for one another's decisions and wishes. What is good for one may not be good for another.


    3. Ben,

      Both of us make for lousy demagogues :(

    4. SMOL,

      I am be happier with such approach. The freedom to choose the desired lifestyle is the sweetest.

      Happy CNY Year to U.


    5. Ben,

      You definitely not an evangelist too ;)

      Have a wonderful Year of the Dog too!

  3. "I mean 90% of traders make money"


    Got shadow or not?

    1. temperament,


      What a typo! I meant only 10% of traders make money. Period ;)

      Was trying to say 90% of traders fail to make any money...

      Should never write comments after mid-night :(

      Thanks for pointing out my typo!

  4. Hi Jared,

    Firstly, happy CNY to you. Wishing you and your family a blissful and healthy year ahead.

    Wa. Trading is your toy?? hehehehe

    1. sleepydevil,

      Happy CNY to you too!

      I guess a quick summary will be useful to newer readers here ;)

      I got to where I am through Earn more and Save more.

      Investing pays for my lifestyle.

      Trading is my chosen craft to keep me intellectually sharp. If not what to do till in my 90s?

      And my edge in Trading is I don't have to Trade for a Living ;)

      Oh! Compliments to your recent piece to challenge your 2 "seniors"!

      Always "Trust but Verify" :)

      The biggest problem with so called "backtesting" is we can "data mine" whatever results we want to support our pre-conceived bias ;)

      If only you were around some time back when I were poking the so called "XIRR" way of measuring portfolio performance!

      Everyone were coming out with their own "interpretation" of the definition and way of calculation!?


    2. Hi SMOL,

      Tell me about it. Some newbie US dividend growth investors say measuring portfolio performance by total returns is WRONG!

      Dividend aristocrat cut dividend nvm. As long get dividends can liao mah!

    3. Unintelligent Nerd,

      You can't argue with those with "Ah Q" mentality ;)

      A true dividend aristocrat is one that increases its dividends every year - like Johnson and Johnson.

      That's dividend GROWTH investing!

      But then, who wants to admit they've made a mistake?

      So we change the rules as we go along ;)

    4. Go and visit investing forum or chatroom. You can see many shouting dividends coming. So joyful! Should name as Happy Dividends Investing

    5. CW,

      Buy that time tell everyone they so clever to find a dividend stock that yields more than 8%!

      Poke fun at those who voluntarily contribute to CPF OA for only 2.5% to 3.5% interests...

      But after dividend cut the yield drops to 2%, conveniently forget and now shout dividends so good!

      P.S. Hell hath no fury like a dividend investor scorned... A dividend reduction or cut would usually be punished by the markets.

      Its either capital loss or diminished unrealised profits to boot :(


    6. In US dividend growth investors invest in Johnson & Johnson.

      In Singapore, our equivalent is Jacob & Jared. Woohoo!

    7. Unintelligent Nerd,

      I don't think the fisherman and me would like to be associated with "yield hogs"...


      Funny thing though. Both of us have benefitted from dividends, but we never put dividends on a pedestal.

      He calls it panadols; I hardly talk about it.

      I'm more John Neff's Growth and Income when it comes to investing - I put Growth first.

      That's consistent with my Earn More and Save More thesis ;)

      I guess Earn More works better for me who started at 16 with O' levels.

      Save More may work better for those who left with MBA or started at higher paying professions like doctors or lawyers?

  5. SMOL,

    Trading as a hobby is a new insight.


    1. Ben,

      It's more than a hobby; its a craft.

      Blogging is a hobby ;)

    2. i think it must a craft first U like so much that it becomes a hobby.

      And hobby can then be easily a lifetime's thing U can do daily.

      That's what i am doing even not buying or selling anything.

      Just watching, watching,.....

    3. temperament,

      I'm fuzzy when it comes to numbers. But when it comes to words, that's where my england is more powderful ;)

      A hobby is an activity we do for enjoyment.

      A craft is an activity that REQUIRES skills and competency.

      Treat investing or trading like a hobby?

      That's how those who start with $1 million end up with $100K...

      Its all fun and games mah!

  6. Replies
    1. temperament,


      You sound like a spectator, like NATO.


  7. LOL!

    NATO is waiting for the Russians to hit them first before unleashing a Tsunami of firing power.

    U must be the OSAMA or ISIS of Middle East.

    No one should doubt U are a wordsmith but a handy craft like naturally gifted in designing cloth fashions can be a hobby too if one chooses - not necessary do it full-time to make money.

    i think by definition retail investors/traders are all part-time market dabblers before they think they can do for life as a hobby.

    Some hobbies do make U money that U become full time.


    i think i have done it enough in the market that i think i can survive in the market as a hobby(not for fun but fun for the money) for life.

    If it's has not becomes "fun"(hobby) for me, i would have given up long ago.

    i think U find it fun to to challenge the market.


    Fun means will lose money?

    i doubt.

    In fact if U make more & more money then U find more and more fun in the market.

    Losing money is definitely no fun.

    If U lose to much, so much that there is really no fun in the market anymore.

    HA! HA!

    1. temperament,

      You are one of those who like to "invent" new meanings to suit your own position.

      That's OK just as long we are talking "male chicken" ;)

      For eg, the substitute of the word "minimalism" for frugality was cleverly used by some ang moh finance authors who knew a thing or two about "marketing" or selling books ;)

      But when "parrots" repeat them, it clear they do not come from an Arts background...

      Minimalism has nothing to do with money; its an art movement.

      Just like hobby or craft has nothing to do with whether we make money or not ;)

      You har!


    2. LOL!

      U win liu if it's in a court of definition of English words.


      What i want to say really is U can turn your craft into a hobby or vice versa.

      My England is bad that's why i can not make U really know what i am trying to say exactly.

      Nevertheless i still think U enjoy (find it fun?)doing something continuously if not U will give up sooner then later.

    3. temperament,

      Gambling addicts find it "fun" to gamble even though they lose more than they win.

      Same for me. I've been buying Toto for 30 years now. Still haven't win the big prize yet. But I still "contribute" weekly. Why? I enjoy having a bit of "hope"!

      That's "hobby". Just as long we happy and enjoy what we do, it does not matter whether we suck at it or lose money ;)

      Craft is something we are "good" at. We are willing to put in the time and effort needed to be skilled at what we do.

      Passive and 5 minutes a day "investing" appeal to those who treat investing as a "hobby". They just want the outcome.

      DIY active investing/trading is for those who enjoy the "process" and treat it like a craft. The outcome is just a way of keeping score ;)

    4. U are maintaining a craft can not be treated as a hobby?

      I am maintaining after learning and honing a craft, it can be treated as a lifetime hobby.

      Also a hobby can not be a serious thing?

      U are right, believe in yourself even after U found out U are left(wrong).

      Or else how to carry on living?

    5. temperament,


      You just be happy oredi can!

      Obviously you don't share my "passion" with words ;)

      To you, happiness, bliss, and glee are probably the "same".

      Same for pretty, beautiful, and scintillating.

      You see pink; I see magenta and fuschia ;)

      There's a reason why there are so many words in the England vocab to express a similar idea ;)

  8. Yes nobody can doubt U are a wordsmith or else how to be a snake-oil sale-man? LOL

    Your feel is not my feel.

    After about 30 years in the market i still can feel i want to be in the market, maybe i bluff myself i treat it as a "hobby" now loh. Relax while investing.

    In fact i can even think i treat it as one of my discovered calling.

    But the feeling of urgency in investing is not strong anymore.

    In exchange, i have built up more patience and caution.

    Never mind if i missed some opportunities.

    1. temperament,

      Of course I know you are "waiting"...

      Same am I ;)

      Difference is I'm using trading to keep my saw sharpened...


      Kung fu don't use will depreciate one!

    2. i don't have practiced your type of Kung Fu.

      Each time i tried, i kena BLUE BLACK EYE.

      My is one trick pony as U like to say?

    3. temperament,

      Its all about entries and exits.

      The more ACTUAL practice I have with REAL money, the more it becomes part of my "muscle memory".

      When the event you've been waiting comes, you better don't "freeze" and give the excuse you are patient and cautious...

  9. Ha! Ha!

    At certain a point of the event, it is sure to happen; like before, many times already.

    1. temperament,

      OK. Let's not frighten the children.

      We both wait patiently.

      Own time; own target ;)


Related Posts Plugin for WordPress, Blogger...