why are you surprise? i had been saying %%% thats is all the matter! absolute numbers has no meaning.
if let say you double your trading account of $10,000 in a year, does that make you a good trader where you have $990,000 cash or other assets sitting idle doing nothing and earning nothing?
your actual returns for that year is actually a mere 1% instead of 100% in your trading account.
and if you don't know your %, how on earth are you able to trade to maximise your returns while still manage your risk by adjusting your trading position limit and size?
I'll rather have 10 million dollars and only "earn" 100 thousand dollars (1% return) per year, sipping my Pina Colada at a beach resort in the shade, with a sweet young thing rubbing sun tan lotion on me.
And listening with a wry smile to someone who just earned 30% return on a 100 thousand dollars account berate me for under performing the index, not earning enough to beat inflation, and how I should let my money "work harder"....
In all honesty, I would love to go back to trading full-time. Maybe after I had gotten my finances sorted out so that there is no unnecessary pressure to bring home the bacon from trading.
If we treat trading as a craft - like any other professional crafts out there - we would know how much time and dedication we need to devote to it.
Which brings to mind investing....
It's better for the reader to find out on his own whether investing is a craft like trading; or is investing "easier" since most retail are doing it part-time?
Many are fans of Warren Buffet, but when Warren Buffet recommends retail to do passive indexing...
Hmm... All the investment greats, are they doing it full-time or part-time? Hmm...
Of course we can point to you CW, uncle Chua, the oat meal guy, etc. Are you guys the norm, or the outliers?
Hmm...
I am a snake-oil salesman who will never say, "If I can do it, so can you!"
there you go! the primary reason is money, or put it more precise the lack of worry for money. not too sure it applies to investing or not?
trading for income (really dislike this term) is not a job at all, yes, i woke up 8am sharp, key in orders at 8:10 finished by 8:25, take a slow walk and back before market open. everyday doing the same thing over and over but its not a job. i don't mind doing it on saturday and sunday too but there is no market. its a game i play without getting tire of, in fact can't get enough of it.
the best day of the week for me is monday and the worst is friday. saturday and sunday i'm a zombi.
in all honesty, trading is next to impossible if you want to make a living out of it. i know this becos i know what i know that the rest don't know especially doing it part time.
there are many things beside the usual that we discuss here i wouldn't want to mention, its provocative and offensive at worst, i keep it to myself.
its more like a "negative negative sum" game. they don't know how hard it can be until they try it!
in todays trading arrina, i believe the only way to have an edge is system based machcanical trading where you take human equation out from trading, you may have a chance depends on your strategy and limberness. a system you develop on your own so that you know how to adjust and make changes when market condition changes.
its not just hard work, need a lot of brain power.
becos of that, i told all that i know please don't trade, don't even bother to invest cos you are very likely to ended up trading your stocks you invested unless you can do what CW (or one of my brother who never sold a single shares after he bot it) do haha....
yes sir re, i'm very chatty today where market is a little quiet, i'm reviewing my "performance" so far and my confident is running sky high.
i know i know, don't be corky i know but i also fear the market, its always on the back of my head, i know! always look out for that particular bullet that might hit my head!
i said i have a goal before i die, last year i almost hit half of that! unbelievable and thanks to the market that got excited few months back. i can't wait til the market open tomorrow!
oh CPF haha, i really don't know why its only 15k in my SA. can someone explain? how much is yours smol?
i work for about 2 years after army, and i remember i contribute CPF also when i start doing business for about 2 years also haha, thats is it, my working experience.
the point is this, lack of security makes one stronger to handle uncertainty in the long run whereas constantly seeking security makes you unable to handle uncertainty.
make sense? unfortunately this is not what society teaches and expecting from us.
some may argue that well you can put half for investing and half for trading.
actually thats not a good idea at all, as i had experience it my self, either all in for investing or in my case all in for trading, its all depends on that % that you can derieve from your activities.
This conversation reminds me of a funny exchange at this titan's blog and his facebook (I shall not name since he got enough slings and arrows of his own).
A little boy was waving at Mr Ban's door by "advising" we should group all our assets together and benchmark this, benchmark that... LOL!
The titan is on semi-retirement today, and will be fully "retired" by 45.
All the qian bei, let me say something in all fairness. If someone tells me their % returns is very high, I'll ask them what's their absolute amt earned. Likewise for someone telling me that earn a lot absolutely, I'll ask their % returns. I think both are different pictures by different blind man touching an elephant. % returns tells you how efficient they are. Absolute returns tells you how big they bet. If your absolute returns increased without having a drop in % returns, then you have improved!
All form of benchmarking is for review and see whether there is further need to revise and improve. If no need to improve, why bother further. Told the story of lady colleague before. She doesn't even to bother to invest. Her saving alone can make her retirement fund.
here is where i depart from you guys, i see the world differently. i see a person not from the front but from whats all behind him.
a person might impress you if you see he donate 1 million to charity, not me cos i need to find out whats behind him. if he is worth a billion, then he is a very stingy guy as far as i 'm concern.
To see if a shoe fits, I just slip my feet into the shoes. I don't need to debate whether it's better to use American, UK, or EU shoe sizes.
It's interesting many will sing Frank Sinatra's "My Way"; but from this banter, we can see who prefer to walk their own path and who prefer to move in a herd ;)
To know what's important, simply remove the unimportant parts. So let's do that.
To feel blessed is to have mum making a coffee for me. Let's remove the mum and replace it by another person, possibly a barista. Or maybe you yourself is the one who made the coffee. Will it be the same feel?
Let's remove the coffee next. Change it to a cup of water. Will it be the same blessings? Or remove the sugar. Or decaff the coffee. Or make it an milo peng? Will it be less or more blessings felt?
Next up, let's remove the fact that mum made the coffee for me. She's there, but she told someone else, maybe a helper, to help do the coffee for me. Is it the same thing?
I'm just asking the questions here, and am well aware that everyone will have different answers. For me, to feel blessed, is to be able to share an activity with people who understands you that even silence can carry words that sometimes words cannot. That should approach what I feel if my mum made a coffee for me.
Thanks for making me understand what's important :)
La kopi or La Teh i prefer the latter though. I like to slowly stir the teh and drink it sip by sip with the tea spoon to taste the tea . That's how i enjoy the taste of tea . I too prefer a quiet environment with not many people , sit down and slowly " La " , enjoy the tea and observe the surroundings.
I'm practical. If I'm a charity organisation, I would rather a billionaire donate 0.1% to me, than 100 pple donating 100% of their $1000 pay. Let the individual be judged. in the meantime, I've a charity to run that needs money!
It's never black and white and I understand where you are coming from.
On the topic of practicality, I would draw the line on "selling out our soul".
It leaves a bitter after taste when billionaires can "buy" the name of a school or hospital. Shame on the administrators.
The rich tycoons of the past donated and built schools, hospitals, charities, etc. None insisted their names to be on the building just because they are the biggest donors.
Like Gan Eng Seng School I attended. It was after his death that the Anglo-Chinese school he funded was renamed Gan Eng Seng School in his honour.
Nayang University was started by Tan Lark Sye and the Singapore Hokkien Association, with fund raising from the public - which include rickshaw drivers to street hawkers.
It was togetherness.
The university was not named Singapore Hokkien University or Tan Lark Sye University. It shows the magnanimity and cultural upbringing of these early pioneers of Singapore.
Their charity wasn't for personal "fame" or "immortality".
its suppose to be a personal feeling but i say it out loud, sorry about that. yes its stingy but still a donation, its good. its like saying you are good but he is better, but i'm the best haha...
How about coffee from wife?
ReplyDeleteCW,
DeleteThis post is written from my 1st person perspective ;)
It's not a "wah kali gong" post. LOL!
Wife? You tell us in your blog mah!
And then show it to her ;)
(We men don't this enough - say how we feel to those we care the most)
Bliss is to be able to enjoy coffee in a relaxed mood, not glup down 3-in-1 satchet in a hurry.
ReplyDeleteSRSI,
DeleteYou have splendidly described how all women feel on their ideal lover ;)
Oh Jared behave!
investor/traders must read! very good article.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.fool.sg/2015/02/24/an-easy-way-to-become-a-better-investor-change-the-way-you-measure-your-performance/
note that the author especially indicate % and not absolute number.
Deletecoconut,
DeleteIt's CNY so I'll be nice, gentle, and all things sweet :)
I'm surprised you are into percentages???
I made 6 baggers during the last 2 years trading; does that make me a "better" trader than you?
No right?
If you say yes, feel free to kneel and I'll accept you as my 小弟. LOL!
And bow to those newbie traders who got beginner's luck with their 100% to 300% returns on their first trade - with their mico trading accounts?
I don't want percentages; I want money
why are you surprise? i had been saying %%% thats is all the matter! absolute numbers has no meaning.
Deleteif let say you double your trading account of $10,000 in a year, does that make you a good trader where you have $990,000 cash or other assets sitting idle doing nothing and earning nothing?
your actual returns for that year is actually a mere 1% instead of 100% in your trading account.
and if you don't know your %, how on earth are you able to trade to maximise your returns while still manage your risk by adjusting your trading position limit and size?
Deletecoconut,
DeleteOK. Your life; your choice ;)
I'll rather have 10 million dollars and only "earn" 100 thousand dollars (1% return) per year, sipping my Pina Colada at a beach resort in the shade, with a sweet young thing rubbing sun tan lotion on me.
And listening with a wry smile to someone who just earned 30% return on a 100 thousand dollars account berate me for under performing the index, not earning enough to beat inflation, and how I should let my money "work harder"....
I maybe a grasshopper, but I still can count ;)
so how are you going to go from here to that 10 millions? TOTO?
Delete$12m ToTo waiting for SMOL
DeleteCW,
DeleteGive way, give way. Thanks!
Now you are talking!
I want $12 million dollars!!!
Not a 10 bagger from Toto ;)
Buy $1 quick-pick and win $10 :(
TOTO 12 millions????
Deletei also want ah!!
coconut,
DeleteYou so cute.
Just an example mah.
Eh? I got 6 baggers in 2 years. So are you going to say I "better" than you?
I'm still waiting....
See?
Cognitive dissonance strikes..
tell me first what 6 baggers means?
Delete600%?
Deletecoconut,
DeleteBingo!
you mean you profited 600% in 2 years based on your account size?!
Deletewah lan!
haha, i'm very happy to have 15% per year on equity, i better keep my mouth shut.
coconut,
DeleteIt's a tiny trading account lah!
A double the year before and a triple last year. But in dollars term, still a long way from you and another home-based trader WolfT.
I pay for my lifestyle with $; no one seems to accept payment in % ;)
home-based trader WolfT? whos that? got blog?
Deletestill you survive and make some money, thats not easy to do!
Deletecoconut,
DeleteMy bad.
I forgot you live in your own universe ;)
I should never have linked you with WolfT. (He's a used to trade in the arcade and is now home-based like you)
I have been waiting for a long time. I guess it's the Hokkien saying: 等旧就有。
It's my time to have my winning streak :)
If only I can say it's due to my sharpening my saw; but it's just blind dumb luck...
amam, i don't believe in luck! i'm into % and probabilities, thats why i don't buy Toto.
Deleteto win for 2 years and may be more is not simply luck, you must be doing something correct, only you will know what it is.
now fat no longer blog, need someone to sharpen my mind haha...
coconut,
DeleteThat means I won't see you at Waterloo street Kwan Im Ma ;)
Sometimes I wonder why I am there when I'm agnostic???
Oh well...
You tell me! I've been trying to pin down why and how I did what I did.
I suspect it has to do with what my Gan Eng Seng Geography teacher has told me about how I needed more time than others...
Others spend 10 minutes part-time can make money; I need 10 hours full-time. So be it.
Could be a coincidence, but when I devote full-time to this trading craft, my results differed vastly!?
In reality, trading for income is just another full time job but marketed by snake oil king as ECA for supplementary income.
DeleteIn all honesty, I would love to go back to trading full-time. Maybe after I had gotten my finances sorted out so that there is no unnecessary pressure to bring home the bacon from trading.
DeleteSRSI,
DeleteYes, I can say trading without the constant "need" to bring home the bacon is quite liberating.
The boring investment part takes care of lifestyle.
Working weekends allow me to "rest" my mind.
Which leaves me the wonderful privilege to be able to trade to achieve; not to escape.
CW,
DeleteI agree, but would rather use the word - craft.
If we treat trading as a craft - like any other professional crafts out there - we would know how much time and dedication we need to devote to it.
Which brings to mind investing....
It's better for the reader to find out on his own whether investing is a craft like trading; or is investing "easier" since most retail are doing it part-time?
Many are fans of Warren Buffet, but when Warren Buffet recommends retail to do passive indexing...
Hmm... All the investment greats, are they doing it full-time or part-time? Hmm...
Of course we can point to you CW, uncle Chua, the oat meal guy, etc. Are you guys the norm, or the outliers?
Hmm...
I am a snake-oil salesman who will never say, "If I can do it, so can you!"
there you go! the primary reason is money, or put it more precise the lack of worry for money. not too sure it applies to investing or not?
Deletetrading for income (really dislike this term) is not a job at all, yes, i woke up 8am sharp, key in orders at 8:10 finished by 8:25, take a slow walk and back before market open. everyday doing the same thing over and over but its not a job. i don't mind doing it on saturday and sunday too but there is no market. its a game i play without getting tire of, in fact can't get enough of it.
the best day of the week for me is monday and the worst is friday. saturday and sunday i'm a zombi.
in all honesty, trading is next to impossible if you want to make a living out of it. i know this becos i know what i know that the rest don't know especially doing it part time.
Deletethere are many things beside the usual that we discuss here i wouldn't want to mention, its provocative and offensive at worst, i keep it to myself.
Agreed!
DeleteIn trading, the good ones will earn their living from the lousy ones' hard earning money from their employed or self-employed day jobs.
It is negative sum game.
coconut,
DeleteTrading is definitely not a "job" to you. You don''t trade to escape; you trade because it's WHO you are ;)
Yup, there are certain truths about the trading industry that's best left unsaid unless we are talking within the circle.
its more like a "negative negative sum" game. they don't know how hard it can be until they try it!
Deletein todays trading arrina, i believe the only way to have an edge is system based machcanical trading where you take human equation out from trading, you may have a chance depends on your strategy and limberness. a system you develop on your own so that you know how to adjust and make changes when market condition changes.
its not just hard work, need a lot of brain power.
coconut,
DeleteHa ha! Now you lapsed into "wah kali kong".
You have found your "system" and it suits you and only you ;)
All roads lead to Rome.
Hee hee. I'm your opposite - I'm discretionary, price action, trend follower. I'm a heretic as a trend follower.
LOL!
becos of that, i told all that i know please don't trade, don't even bother to invest cos you are very likely to ended up trading your stocks you invested unless you can do what CW (or one of my brother who never sold a single shares after he bot it) do haha....
Deletetrend following can be machcanical designed also, trend following is good, its the name of the game now!
Deleteby the way, i'm too a trend trader depends on which "leg" (learning from ladykiller" you are talking about.
Deletecoconut,
DeleteIt's so nice to have ladykiller to exchange ideas and act as sounding board. He is so refreshingly blunt and in your face! The power of youth!
There are too few "hobbyist" trading blogs locally. The majority are just koyok fronts selling their courses or subscription services.
And then there are real traders like you that don't write blogs. So must enjoy the moment like today!
Some days you are very chatty. Some other weeks you don't know disappear until where....
WolfT is like dragon - can see tail but can't find head. He'll comment whenever he pleases.
Come to think of it, traders have our own unique personalities!!!
So very de interesting!
yes sir re, i'm very chatty today where market is a little quiet, i'm reviewing my "performance" so far and my confident is running sky high.
Deletei know i know, don't be corky i know but i also fear the market, its always on the back of my head, i know! always look out for that particular bullet that might hit my head!
i said i have a goal before i die, last year i almost hit half of that! unbelievable and thanks to the market that got excited few months back. i can't wait til the market open tomorrow!
coconut,
DeleteAll the best!
Someone by the nick MaoMao asked you a question at this old post:
2 suggestions I like from CPF review panel
oh CPF haha, i really don't know why its only 15k in my SA. can someone explain? how much is yours smol?
Deletei work for about 2 years after army, and i remember i contribute CPF also when i start doing business for about 2 years also haha, thats is it, my working experience.
coconut,
DeleteSee? There are people who are interested in you! You and your "lack" of work history is totally unique and unorthodox.
Look! The man with no screws! (I say this with love)
Must charge you secretarial services - must take messages for you some more..
the point is this, lack of security makes one stronger to handle uncertainty in the long run whereas constantly seeking security makes you unable to handle uncertainty.
Deletemake sense? unfortunately this is not what society teaches and expecting from us.
make sure you study hard, make sure you lock your door, don't forget to put coupon (my wife favorate!), make sure you check the bill.....
Deletecoconut,
DeleteI understand you crystal.
You are talking to someone who left school at 16 remember?
We are the ones who make lemonades from lemons - its how we play the hand we are given ;)
So sweet! You and your wife complement each other! LOL!
The best partnership is one focus on earnings (attack, innovation), the other focus on savings (defense, maintenance).
Coconut is right. He measures his performance at portfolio level including cash available for trading or investing.
ReplyDeletesome may argue that well you can put half for investing and half for trading.
Deleteactually thats not a good idea at all, as i had experience it my self, either all in for investing or in my case all in for trading, its all depends on that % that you can derieve from your activities.
CW,
DeleteThis conversation reminds me of a funny exchange at this titan's blog and his facebook (I shall not name since he got enough slings and arrows of his own).
A little boy was waving at Mr Ban's door by "advising" we should group all our assets together and benchmark this, benchmark that... LOL!
The titan is on semi-retirement today, and will be fully "retired" by 45.
Hello?
LOL!
I know who you're talking about! I was sniggering too and thought of joining the fun but I stopped myself :)
DeleteWhen we are small we need that big % to reach there sooner so that we can shout out to the sheep followers. You see how I made $120K passive income.
Delete% comes before actual unless we already have that actual $m on hand.
No?
LP,
DeleteYou saw it too?
Other people's readers I cannot poke.
But this brings to mind the Anthony Robbins example - success in one arena does not automatically make one "successful" in another field ;)
CW,
DeleteYou har!
Are you still "sore" your 10 baggers not as powderful as other people"s 120K passive income?
So competitive!!!
We all know what's hidden behind all these "benchmarking"...
Lucky I'm just an insect.
If my today is better than my yesterday, isn't this enough?
All the qian bei, let me say something in all fairness. If someone tells me their % returns is very high, I'll ask them what's their absolute amt earned. Likewise for someone telling me that earn a lot absolutely, I'll ask their % returns. I think both are different pictures by different blind man touching an elephant. % returns tells you how efficient they are. Absolute returns tells you how big they bet. If your absolute returns increased without having a drop in % returns, then you have improved!
DeleteYou are right!
DeleteAll form of benchmarking is for review and see whether there is further need to revise and improve. If no need to improve, why bother further. Told the story of lady colleague before. She doesn't even to bother to invest. Her saving alone can make her retirement fund.
here is where i depart from you guys, i see the world differently. i see a person not from the front but from whats all behind him.
Deletea person might impress you if you see he donate 1 million to charity, not me cos i need to find out whats behind him. if he is worth a billion, then he is a very stingy guy as far as i 'm concern.
CW,
DeleteExactly!
Couldn't agree with you more!
Your lady colleague got fantastic active earned income, zero yield, no benchmarking - for the win!
I think I better stop. Wait those who kneel to the altar of passive income and benchmarking will start throwing daggers at me!
LP,
DeleteIt's all kopitiam talk talk fun and games ;)
To see if a shoe fits, I just slip my feet into the shoes. I don't need to debate whether it's better to use American, UK, or EU shoe sizes.
It's interesting many will sing Frank Sinatra's "My Way"; but from this banter, we can see who prefer to walk their own path and who prefer to move in a herd ;)
Shhh.....
coconut,
DeleteYou have always been a very unique individual.
Only you will see someone as "stingy" for donating 1 million dollars ;)
That's why I was surprised!
To see you running behind that author that you were so enamoured with this morning ;)
I guess I was expecting a "this is what I think" from you...
LOL!
i don't know the author, he might be just copying from somewhere.
Deletewhat so unique? its just so common sense to me. he got 1 billion and only give up a million, thats 0.1% of what he has. you call that generous??
i think half of our population are more generous than that!
coconut,
DeleteHappy CNY!
Come! A hug!
:)
Hi SMOL,
ReplyDeleteTo know what's important, simply remove the unimportant parts. So let's do that.
To feel blessed is to have mum making a coffee for me. Let's remove the mum and replace it by another person, possibly a barista. Or maybe you yourself is the one who made the coffee. Will it be the same feel?
Let's remove the coffee next. Change it to a cup of water. Will it be the same blessings? Or remove the sugar. Or decaff the coffee. Or make it an milo peng? Will it be less or more blessings felt?
Next up, let's remove the fact that mum made the coffee for me. She's there, but she told someone else, maybe a helper, to help do the coffee for me. Is it the same thing?
I'm just asking the questions here, and am well aware that everyone will have different answers. For me, to feel blessed, is to be able to share an activity with people who understands you that even silence can carry words that sometimes words cannot. That should approach what I feel if my mum made a coffee for me.
Thanks for making me understand what's important :)
LP,
DeleteI think in English but my hearts sings in Mandarin.
You see "妈妈亲手", while some others are focusing on "coffee".
LOL!
Hi SMOL
ReplyDeleteLa kopi or La Teh i prefer the latter though. I like to slowly stir the teh and drink it sip by sip with the tea spoon to taste the tea . That's how i enjoy the taste of tea . I too prefer a quiet environment with not many people , sit down and slowly " La " , enjoy the tea and observe the surroundings.
Small Time Investor,
DeleteAh! An ang moh teh drinker!
It's a bit like meditation hor?
Sip, sip, la, la.
I do like Chinese tea too - something I picked up from my maternal ah ma - 铁观音 - from the oolong tea family。
Slow down. Have a hot cup of coffee or tea. Life is less stressful ;)
Hi SMOL,
ReplyDeleteThere is one Chinese song with phrase "被爱是幸福......."
Of course motherly love inclusive!
Rolf,
DeleteWater is water - even though they may come in the form of snow, ice, mist, fog, cloud, and what have you.
Love is love :)
能尝到幸福就是幸福。
ReplyDeleteDerek,
Delete能尝到幸福还要懂得惜福。
那是当然的， 还要懂得知足常樂才是最幸福。
Deletetemperament,
ReplyDeleteIt's better to view the world with a glass half-full perspective ;)
Ah! It's nice to have a different opinion!
I must apologize to coconut, it's not only him and him alone who thinks donating 1 million is stingy!!!??? LOL!
I am more of the 随意 school.
If I tithe or make a donation, I offer what I am comfortable with.
Similarly, I don't whisper when someone made a 10 cents donation, or exclaim in excitement someone made a $1 million donation. It's the same 感恩心。
To have prior "expectations" may seduce me to the entitlement trap...
I've heard of one spirituality where the shepherd scolded his flock of sheep for tithing "too little"... Wow!
Imagine me being berated on flag day by students who "expect" working adults to donate more than a few coins... Ouch!
I'm practical. If I'm a charity organisation, I would rather a billionaire donate 0.1% to me, than 100 pple donating 100% of their $1000 pay. Let the individual be judged. in the meantime, I've a charity to run that needs money!
ReplyDeleteLP,
ReplyDeleteCharities should hire those with engineering background to run their show. Efficient and effective. Do more; talk less.
The problem with me and my liberal arts background is that I sometimes go "to be or not to be" too much and nothing gets done...
But then, when it comes to fund raising, you'll need snake oil salesman like me!
LOL!
P.S. We all have a role to play. Again，our 5000 years of collective wisdom come to the rescue: 有钱出钱，有力出力。
temperament,
ReplyDeleteIt's never black and white and I understand where you are coming from.
On the topic of practicality, I would draw the line on "selling out our soul".
It leaves a bitter after taste when billionaires can "buy" the name of a school or hospital. Shame on the administrators.
The rich tycoons of the past donated and built schools, hospitals, charities, etc. None insisted their names to be on the building just because they are the biggest donors.
Like Gan Eng Seng School I attended. It was after his death that the Anglo-Chinese school he funded was renamed Gan Eng Seng School in his honour.
Nayang University was started by Tan Lark Sye and the Singapore Hokkien Association, with fund raising from the public - which include rickshaw drivers to street hawkers.
It was togetherness.
The university was not named Singapore Hokkien University or Tan Lark Sye University. It shows the magnanimity and cultural upbringing of these early pioneers of Singapore.
Their charity wasn't for personal "fame" or "immortality".
wah lan, i started it, didn't i?
ReplyDeleteits suppose to be a personal feeling but i say it out loud, sorry about that. yes its stingy but still a donation, its good. its like saying you are good but he is better, but i'm the best haha...
coconut,
ReplyDeleteYah you!
Who would have known this personal blog post in Chinese would go off tangent? And I thought its another one of those "cold door" personal musings...
LOL!