Sunday, 24 March 2019

Does it matter WHEN we retire?

My time, it was fashionable for some high achievers to muse about retiring in their 40s.

These people are usually doing very well in their corporate career earning high incomes.

It wasn't difficult for them. 

Just start saving a bigger share of their high incomes, then convert them to dividend stocks, bonds, or rental properties and they can retire... Yeah, just like that!

Investing acumen optional.

Now the youths of today seek to be financially free by 35. Power!

Imagine leaving university at 22 or 24, and in about 10 to 13 years, you have earned and saved enough money to last you till your 90s!

Still don't believe the power of youths is they don't know what cannot be done?

That's only the money part.

Often when we have achieved whatever we wanted, we begin to have second thoughts...

We all had this experience before right?

That girl you always wanted. When you finally had her, you begin to question were you really into her in the first place...

Or that "toy" you always wanted. You know, that luxury watch you saw others having, you tell yourself when you arrived you also must have! Then like that lor... No feeling when you have it. Now it sits quietly in the drawer. Long time never wear...

Remember when we were in school, one year seemed like an eternity?

And if you failed your exam and have to be retained, one year lost and behind others is a BIG GAP. Or so you thought... 

Then there are men who complained about National Service... How they have lost 2 years compared to girls. Wow. Really? 

Girls, besides giam siap gui men, stay away from these whiners too. What kind of men will use NS as an excuse for losing out to women in the corporate world!?

Funny thing though. Once we are in the corporate world, time pass super fast!

Before we knew it, decades just flew by...

And being stuck in the same job for 10 years is normal to you.

1, 2, 5 years difference? They don't matter now. 

Especially when you see your peer "wastes" 2 years taking sabbatical to study MBA fulltime, come back got promotion; you still doing the same job.

Your junior took up the challenge to work overseas for 5 years, come back now at a higher payscale than you; you still stuck at the same payscale.

Precision is good. But too much black and white can give you depression if you too anal about 2 decimal places.

Would you be happier if you had achieved your financial freedom goal to retire by 35, but go sell salted eggs a few years later? 

(In our community we got that self-styled guru who wanted to create lots of millionaires and the investing doctor who sold his business. Financial freedom is not a free pass to immortality...)

Or is it that bad if you had missed your financial freedom goal to retire by 35 and only able to retire at 50? You know, the more you planned, the more things backfired?

But you get to live to your 90s and beyond? Like lao lee and Mahatir?

I personally think Mahatir must be smiling to sleep every night. He has outlived his political rivals for the win!

I don't know. 

I would love to live till 90 and beyond, provided I'm in good health. I've this greed to enjoy life!

However, If invalid or in pain, I would much prefer to go as quick as possible! 

And if the doctor says I got one more year to live, I'm mentally and spiritually OK too. 

You know what?

Right here, right now, I'm OK (typical Singaporean response). I have a reason to get up every morning.

I don't have to worry who will take care of mom and dad as I have 2 others siblings to take over. 

What I have can be gifted to them to lighten the load, at least financially speaking.

Sometimes I do pinch myself.

Am I lucky or what?


  1. If we are allowed or have the options to work at much slower pace at 50s or 60s can be considered lucky and good.

    1. CW,

      If company don't provide, we can find them ourselves. Like what we have done for ourselves ;)

      The problem is people want to work less and more leisurely but at the same pay? These people are the closet socialists or communists... Will these same people hire a 60 year old maid over a 18 year old one for the same pay?

      Some cannot climb down from their high perch... What? I'm a retail manager/buyer! How can I go back to the selling floor or be a delivery man?

      Some cannot let go of power and prestige...

      How many can walk away when we are ahead?

  2. Everybody whin...

    Hahaha. Just after that, say and get on with it, or move on

    U want no pain and good health, everyday is a steal. For the last 3 months I visit the hospital almost everyday. Community hospital, step down hospital, normal ward, isolation ward, observe nurses, fellow ward mates, and fellow visitors...

    So what if sickness. Someone mix the milk and put into his tube on his own. Even shouted and ask the nurse what amount. Grit... in the face of sickness.

    Many more basically just waiting...

    What plans they have?

    Whay plan and act to our best ability.

    The book on brief history of mankind...
    It says the largest fraud in history us agriculture. Its the turning point from nomad hunter and scavengerto the birth of the concept home.

    People work and bend down to grow plants And had less variety of food. When harvest is better, they stay to have concept of future.

    How to store.

    When they have enough for a month, they wonder how to store for a year. When they have a year, they wonder how to keep out ITHER tribes...

    Moving goalpole.

    How many of us, are free spirit like a nomad hunter at heart?

    I know I am not.

    1. Sillyinvestor,

      Sorry hor. Speak for yourself!

      Some of us are made of sterner stuff.

      Whenever we meet, got hear me whining or not?

      We both have visited more than our share of hospitals in recent years... It sure give us perspective, doesn't it?

      I'm not sure about the "fraud" thing. The discovery of agriculture is the thing that enabled humans to grow in numbers exponentially.

      As hunter/gatherer, we can't outgrow our food source.

      And once we can produce more than enough for everyone, social classes start to appear. How to have leisure time when we have to tend the fields ourselves?

      The many toil so the few can enjoy.

      It has not changed even till today. Even in former communist countries. If anything is a fraud, its communism!

      No. It never struck me you're a free spirit ;)

      Too many baggages on your shoulders...

  3. Hi Jared,

    Retire cannot be confused with Financial free! Retire means : leave one's job and cease to work, typically on reaching the normal age for leaving service. Financially free is different thing.

    I think the biggest reason why most of the youthful bloggers wanted retire/FF are because that they do not like to be subject to authority. Most wanted all things their own ways!

    In fact this generation including perhaps even those above 40s or 50s or all ages are mostly self-centered. Although the younger are more self-centred... I am not excluded. The bible already predicted this. We love ourselves, we tend to care only for ourselves, or at most our family members. Other people, I hack care! We do not want to obey authorities. We wanted all things our way. We look ways to satisfy our pride and ego!

    And often times, because of how the way the World is “badly” structured, money or financial freedom or Retiring, whatever you want to call it, are just one of the ways to satisfy that ego or to justify that one is successful. So people are worshipping that instead of finding the true meaning of life. Quite sorry actually. The lack of experience in life, and wisdom becos of the blind pursuit of the material. In fact the most wealthy or powerful made these mistakes often.

    Some wanted retire early, some wanted to build a co to change the world, some wanted relax, etc etc etc, but end of the day, the core is to satisfy the pride of life.

    Of course, there are minority of human race are not in this group. It is because of their HEART!

    End of the day, you can fight to do this and that, but life is unpredictable. An accident or illness will just spoil all your lifelong plans. Or perhaps you achieve your FF or retirement, but you always have opportunity costs, perhaps you have bad relationships and perhaps DEEP DOWN you are never truly that happy, although on surface you appear are. Or online, you are always happy.

    So my point is….. reflect upon our problems, turn from it, genuinely seek what is the true meaning of our life on earth. When I say truth, it means go back all the way to the root / core! Otherwise we will always be only on the peripheral.

    Once you find the “LIGHT” you will be genuinely loving, genuinely peaceful and joyful, and people around you will feel it and love being with you. You will have genuine relationships with people around you, where you guys will genuinely care for one another without any agenda. Because you share the truth (although it is often hurtful to pride of othersl) but it is for the reason of unselfishness so that people around you can also share the joy.

    I myself is a big problem, and continuously seeking to improve! Hope it sheds some light with this long winded comment

    1. Rolf,

      The great fun to this blogging hobby of mine is the diverse and eclectic nature of this watering hole!

      I can talk about manga and anime and they will be other "otakus" to share my appreciation of "waifus" ;)

      Interested in philately or numismatics (fancy words for stamps and coins/notes collecting)? Got fellow collectors :)

      When it comes to sex and politics, no need to say. Everyone game and got opinions!

      But when it comes to spirituality, metaphysics, and religion, I must say I am quite fortunate to have met you.

      We are on opposite sides of the spectrum :)

      I am the shepherd of one. Like the arhat who prioritises his own cultivation first.

      And a man of science. Agnostic when polite; atheist non-militant in essence.

      Together with other acolytes of value/dividend/passive/buy-and-hold on the other spectrum, I've enjoyed our little "zen combat" moments ;)

      Behind evey poke, there's vigor and conviction. Wink.

  4. Ha ha SMOL,

    my bad, should not say you whin...
    However, I never considered myself free spirit, I saying hope to...

    by the way, you are dead right about the numbers, it allow population to grow exponentially per square area, the historian speak of it as much.

    You got it, many toil, few enjoy...

    Actually if you really want to say what is real or fake, communism hardly is the only one... that is built against human instinct...BUt it work as a wonderful rallying cry at one point... So much so that capitalists are reading Karl Marx to hope to counter the influence

    1. Sillyinvestor,

      Of course there's more. Especially when we look back into human history.

      In recent times, there's Venezuela and Zimbabwe - how to say no to
      "free" this, "free" that? Then you realise "free" is so costly :(

      There's another big one in the room I better don't say.

      Somethings can say, somethings better zip up ;)

      The pen is indeed mightier than the sword.

      An idea can move the world if we can sell it to anyone and everyone!

  5. Hi Smol,

    I suppose it matters to those who can't stand their jobs, or have health concerns, or family issues.

    Voluntary retirement usually due to push factors & not pull. :)

    1. Spur,

      Yes, its back to whether one is retiring to escape or retiring to achieve ;)


    2. How about i forced myself to stop working at 53 though my technical skills had been quite good.

    3. temperament,

      Define "force".

      1. Got retrenched?

      2. Kenna fired?

      3. You quit under stress/duress?

      4. You quit because of illness or accident?

      If you retired to do something you prefer, "force" would not be the word that comes to mind ;)

    4. All can be inclusive except no. 4.

      i forced myself because I didn't want to be underemployed and more stressed.

      Besides I know I can be employed as house_ husband and wife's driver. This is also i think we can give us a better family's life. One person stressed at work, one relax to support a better family's life.
      If both also stressed, how to help to have a less stress in family's life.

      And also all these years the Market has been kind to us.

      And we never get into debt one.

  6. Got straight-forward route I don't want to take, itchy backside must take detour and 走马看花. No idea that I would end up here but hey, life's funny that way.

    Who would have thought I would be going back to my alma mater for a recruitment drive, a dozen years after graduating?! I probably can't tell people what they should do, but I think I can share my mistakes .. and a little perspective.

    FIRE means nothing if they are just kicking the can down the road. Ha!

    1. Kevin,

      Isn't kinda "boring" to know exactly how we will end up in the future?

      That's why we like surprises! Especially girls ;)

      OK, nasty surprises suck. But without them, how will we appreciate the nice and pleasant ones?

      Yup. That's wny I envy those who knew what they wanted to do in life at an early age.

      I had to stumble and fumble during my 20s, the job hopping Thomas Edison tikum tikum way of discovering what I liked, what I didn't like.

      When I enjoye what I liked, it never felt like work. And I got paid for it!?

      Cool :)

    2. I suppose some like the certainty and stability. I have friends who graduated and have been in the same company for 12 years! in comparison, I guess moving around allowed me to experience different industries and company culture. Nasty surprises are everywhere!

      Even now, I can't say I'm 100% sure of what I want to do. No laser-like precision focus unlike some of my peers .. yes, still stumbling and fumbling. I shall keep looking. I don't wanna be the slow-cooking frog :D

    3. Kevin,

      Our cups are never full.

      Must leave space to allow new experiences to flow in ;)

      Let's stay forever young and curious!

  7. Hmm .. It does matter HOW we retire. Is that more critical?

    1. CW,

      I'll put it this way.

      My take is it doesn't really matter WHEN or HOW (marry well or strike Toto best) we retire...

      What we gonna do AFTER we retire? That is more important.

      Imagine you don't have your side gigs or you not into long walks, what you gonna do for the past 2 years?

      Can you imagine you don't have this blogging hobby?

      See? Do things we like, even not paid, we happy happy do it!

      Do things we hated, never mind got CPF, salary, bonuses, medical/dental benefits, annual leave, and all that...

      We set goals and plans looking forward to that day we can say good riddance!

      As a former serial job-hopper, I sometimes scratch my head when I read a blogger definitely not doing well in his day job.

      Not happy in your job? Why seek FIRE to escape?

      When one can just change job/career/industry instead?

      Readers can easily see the both of us are enjoying our blogging :)

      My long comments and your colourful powerpoints - we don't
      see them as work or chore right?

    2. Hi Smol,

      I believe that your serial job-hopper trend has provided you the platform to gain freedom in the current context.

      Changing job is good for a corporate worker and broaden his/her horizon. I changed job three times and I gained a lot from such decision.


    3. Ben,

      Now looking back of course can say it did "no harm"...

      But during my lost years, the shortest was 1/2 day I quitted. Longest was 1-2 years? Most lasted only a few months.

      Even I had doubts about myself!!!

      Am I a loser?

      Why can't I stay in a job for more than 2 years?

      Then I joined my last company and stayed for 14 years!!!???

      That's why I have a different outlook on goal settings and making plans ;)

      A lot of things I can't explain even to myself.

      I'm a leaf in the wind.

  8. Hi SMOL,

    These days I find it hard to comment on anything. I think it must have happened when I detoxed myself off social media - I deleted the app, but still uses the website version, which is slower and less, hmm, instantaneous. Since it's slower, I react less often and by the time I had a good response, the moment had passed and nobody wishes to engage me in that discussion anymore. Which is the entire point.

    That is my sort of apology for not engaging in your posts as often as in the past. I procrastinated on blogging on my own site, hence I came here to comment hahaha

    Firstly, I don't know what is retire anymore. I'm sort of retired, yet I'm not. I live a life of a retiree, yet I'm not. It feels like the right pace of life for me, so I also don't care whether I'm retired or not. I'm more like a farmer. In a year, there's a time to sow the seeds, a time to harvest, a time to rest and relax and a time to be busy again. Not trying to win an award for achieving this extraordinary status, since I just wanted to live my own kind of life. I think for me, the most important part is that my wife is also living the same kind of life as me. Imagine if I'm working a typical job, and she is free and's going to be a lot of problems.

    What do I want to retire from? This current set up is great. Why do I want to retire from it? I guess everyone has their own ans to that question.

    1. LP,

      1. I'm happy for you! There was a time I found it weird you're a "moderator" for that social media; quite prolific with the mindless chatter too! Poke, poke.

      I would have thought at our stage of cultivation, we need lots of "alone me time" and "empty spaces". Wink.

      2. No need to apologize. At this watering hole, there's no demands placed on anyone - even on myself!

      I blog when I happy; not in the mood I go radio silence without informing anyone.

      Hate me say I very de rude, no manners... Understand me know I'm a free spirit ;)

      Let's stay casual. Come as you are!

      3. We are not trapped by words anymore ;)

      Our situations quite similar. Technically, can say we are still "working", but then again, what we do do not fit into what others would call a "proper" job... LOL!

      What are we?

      Retired? Financially free? Taking sabbatical? In between proper jobs? Hippies? Craftsmen? Bums without proper jobs?

      Hungry eat; tired rest.

      I think I've gone back to the hunter/gatherer lifestyle of our ancestors... LOL!

      We are neither trying to retire FROM anything; nor do we seek to escape TO something.

      We are living the life!


  9. Like it or not, i say no one actually retires until he draws his last breath.

    Not even the worm crawling under your feet.

    Someone had said if u happened to step on it, it would turned it's head to look at U.

    1. temperament,

      This is where both atheist and believer can agree ;)

      I doubt retirement or FIRE will be on the top of our minds at our deathbeds...

  10. As long as a person has enough money to FIRE, it doesn't matter when he retires. Whatever problems he faces after FIRE is small problem even if he doesn't know exactly what he is going to do.

    Too bored? I don't think it's hard to find or revive a fun hobby to occupy time.

    Ego took a hit after retirement because he is no longer an important person that people look up to in the office? I've got a solution for him. Start a blog, show your "massive" portfolio, announce to the world you have reached financial freedom, retire early today! Younger the better. Like you said, financially free by 35. Power! All the congratulatory messages to heal the ego will start flowing in. LOL.

    As long as one has enough money to meet his needs and health is in good shape, most problems in life that cause unhappiness can be fixed simply with a change in perspective. Just a mind game only.

    1. hyom,

      To read a person, a simple technique is to find out his/her MOTIVATION for doing the thing they do.

      Then everything else falls into place ;)

      You're good!

      The answer frequently lies within; not without ;)

      Got money, no spirituality, no philosophy; its like got lots of petrol but no car... And no idea where you want to go!?

  11. Hi Hyom,

    I totally agree with you on the enough money to FIRE. It creates a different perspective in which the individual with such circumstance is in control on his/her lifestyle.


  12. If one not aiming for the stars or moon or sky, also can FIRE in his own ways, earlier.

    1. This will apply for those who do not follow the Jones by means of lifestyle inflation.

  13. Lessons From Dorsey Wright’s Thomas Dorsey

    “Investment philosophy is really about temperament, not raw intellect. In fact, proper temperament will beat high IQ all day.” – Michael Mauboussin
    Last week the Wall Street Journal ran a profile of Thomas Dorsey, the president of Dorsey Wright & Associates, an investment firm that focuses on momentum and trend following strategies.
    I had a few people send me this story asking for my thoughts.
    Early in my career, when I thought I knew everything, it was easy to dismiss an investment philosophy that differed from my own because I thought I had it all figured out.
    At this point I’ve been involved in just about every investment style, strategy, market and product you could imagine. I now understand that it makes no sense to completely dismiss an investment discipline because you can always incorporate aspects of different strategies into your approach.
    Why not have an open mind? Everyone is different and personality-type has a lot to do with the style certain investors use. Even if you don’t use the strategy in question, you can always learn from other investors, both good and bad, even if you don’t utilize their same philosophy.
    In this case, having an understanding of trends is very important because they can last longer than most assume and can move very swiftly in the other direction, as we’ve seen in the past couple of weeks.
    Here are a some of the other lessons I took away from this profile:
    Mr. Dorsey, 66, whose company is tucked away in a wooded office park outside Richmond, Va., has an approach that he says separates him from many market technicians: “I always strive for simplicity,” he says. Degree of difficulty has never been a prerequisite for investment success. You don’t have to be clever or blessed with superior intelligence to make money in the markets. Complexity doesn’t guarantee profits.
    And there are no complicated formulas to generate trading ideas. In a nutshell, Mr. Dorsey ranks investments based on how well they have been performing relative to each other. Many investors would thumb their nose at such a simplistic approach, but maybe that’s why it works. Also, simple doesn’t mean easy. You still have to execute any strategy in real-time while dealing with all of the noise, differing opinions, emotions and market movements.
    The calculations are so simple, Mr. Dorsey says, that after he demonstrated them to students at Gates Elementary School in Chesterfield, Va., it took them less than 40 minutes to duplicate his stock-picking method. I think this is great. A quote I have on the about page of this website from Einstein is one of my all-time favorites: “If you can’t explain it to a six year old, you don’t understand it yourself.”
    Discipline is critical, though: Once a favored investment starts falling behind the pack, he swaps it for the one that took its place, no questions asked. “I don’t make judgment calls, ever,” Mr. Dorsey said. “We’re purely rules-based.” Automating good behavior is one of the smartest things an investor can do to reduce unforced errors. It doesn’t mean you won’t be wrong, but it can lower your chances of making egregious mistakes.
    He acknowledges the formula doesn’t always work when the market is moving in a narrow range, failing to generate the trends that feed his calculations. And he admits that he won’t buy at the bottom or sell at the top with this method. But, he says, he’ll catch the big moves. Nothing works forever. The investors that assume they’re infallible are usually the ones that blow-up from leaning too far in one direction because they’re absolutely certain they’re right and the market is wrong. Strong opinions and stubbornness can cloud your judgment when making investment decisions. Overconfidence in any approach will usually lead to large losses eventually.

    Hi SMOL & bloggers like or don't like what U read?

    No presents for guessing why my nickname is "Temperament".

    That's me - a temperamental person by nature. only more mellow now due to age. U can still try me.


    1. temperament,

      Ahem. I'm a trend follower.

      And I've shared that trend followers are not the smartest traders ;)

      That's not important. But what are you?

      You like to hide behind others you quote without revealing your actual stand or convictions. I've poked you countless times on it.

      So, are you a trend follower?

      Or are you just "temperamental"?

      I didn't know thats an investment/trading style!?

  14. Ha! Ha!

    See U have not understand temperament way of investing.

    Must be invest like this or like that.

    And U keep on saying people hide behind someone's ideas whenever someone bring up someone ideas.

    Of course U think whatever U say must be original, new ideas?

    Have U come across some one said there is actually very, very new things
    under Sun?

    Even if there is, it is an evolution of ideas or things?

    Another words to me, whatever idea U express U have had learn it somewhere, sometime from somebody.

    Have U really invented some new idea or thing?


    1. temperament,

      My bad.

      Serve me right to try to engage with a soldier ;)

    2. Soldier never dies - Only fades away into history.

  15. Very, very little new things appear under the Sun.

  16. Hi Smol,

    I read this post again. This post has a different pespective as my previous read a few months back. All the moment are transient to all extent.

    The best approach is to have open mind and focus on own life as happy as possible.


    1. Ben,

      Now you know why I'm drawn towards the philosophy of Zen.

      Right here; right now.

      No man steps into the same river twice ;)

      I'm not there yet...

      Ghosts of my past still like to haunt and taunt me. Chiding me for changing my mind... Abandoning my old beliefs...

      Sirens of the future will seduce me with silly dreams and fantasies. Distracting me with lofty goals and grandeur plans...

    2. Hi SMOL,

      "Ghosts of my past still like to haunt and taunt me. Chiding me for changing my mind... Abandoning my old beliefs...

      Sirens of the future will seduce me with silly dreams and fantasies. Distracting me with lofty goals and grandeur plans...

      This sounds profound but I'm too thick to get it. I thought having dreams are a good thing because they bring focus to an individual's daily actions into achieving that dream. Why are dreams a distraction when they bring focus?

      Ghosts from the past always haunt/taunt me, though they provide food for self-reflection and eventual self-improvement.

      I'm ignorant about ZEN. What attracts you to it?

    3. hyom,

      Having a dream is good; not if they are silly or mere fantasies.

      Even got "good" dream, its still a distraction when I'm focusing on the here and now ;)

      Most people live in the future or in the past; never in the present.

      In the Northern (Mahayana) Buddhism, there's 2 main schools that survived - Pure Land and Zen.

      I'll probably get hammared for sharing this joke:

      Pure Land is favoured by peasants - you just need faith.

      Zen is favoured by intellectuals and samurais - not for anyone and everyone; have to think for yourself!


      Jokes aside, Zen is merely a label for what we do everyday.

      Pissing in the toilet with awareness (not missing and making a mess) is Zen.

      Pissing in the toilet while talking on your phone is not!

    4. SMOL,

      Prioritise solving the present immediate problems over the uncertain future. Do fire-fighting first, then plan and action for the future. Future dreams are good for giving purpose to live the present, after the immediate concerns of the present are taken care of.

      Makes sense to be mindful of the present. Prioritise present over past and future. Thanks.

  17. Hyom & Smol,

    I am of view that there is no need to do fire-fighting. Focus on the present. Concentrate on removing the clutters. Life will be much more simpler.


    1. Ben,

      Give chance.

      hyom is new to this Zen stuff... Hence he used the word "fire-fighting" ;)

      We give him the space to figure things out for himself :)

    2. Hmm ... I can't figure it out.

      Since Zen is focusing on the present, then fire-fighting is the most zen-like thing to do. When fire is on your pants burning up the buttocks, the most immediate problem to solve presently is to douse the fire. For example, a start-up has to focus on dousing the fires that are threatening its immediate survival before it can spend time thinking about the strategic directions for the future.

      How does the word "fire-fighting" go against the philosophy of Zen? Can the Zen experts enlighten?

    3. hyom,


      Don't let words (or any articial man-made construct) entrap you ;)

      Yes. The essence of Zen is hungry eat; tired rest.

      So if your pants is burning, of course the most important thing is to douse the fire out! Pronto!

      You don't say let me send out this email out first, or wait till you have finished watching your favourite K-pop drama ;)

      Then again, how often is your pants on fire? Every day?

      Funny you mentioned startups. Come to think of it, be it startups or any established companies - can they thrive and grow when all they do is fire-fighting all the time?

      Perhaps that's why those who do fire-fighting are often much lower on the corporate pyramid; while those who do less, talk more are often found at the apex of the pyramid?

      No. Fire-figthing is not against the philosophy of Zen. Its just kindergaten level awareness.

      I don't know about you, that's not why I get up in the morning ;)

      Do you?

      P.S. That's why I prefer to say hungry eat; tired rest ;)

    4. SMOL,

      Sometimes, the human body gets sick. Can't eat, can't rest properly. This blocks what you call the essence of Zen - hungry eat, tired rest. Same goes for even a good company which sometimes have to fight fires. Of course, fire-fighting cannot be happening all the time for a normal company.

      When sick, see doctor. Got fire, douse fire. If non-stop fire, get ready for company to close down. If see doctor many times and still sick, prepare the will before time is up. No need to talk about Zen in these cases.

      Certain pre-requisites must be in place for a company or human to be in the natural flow of "hungry eat, tired rest". First, be in good health. Second, enough $$$. Third, harmonious family relationships, especially with spouse for those who are married. Without the above conditions, the natural flow is blocked. When these conditions are met, the rest is all in the state of mind to achieve smooth and natural flow of "hungry eat, tired rest" Zen.

      This is my understanding of Zen. Since you're the Zen expert, correct me if I'm wrong.

    5. hyom,

      There are no Zen experts; only practioners.

      The differences lie in how thorough our understanding is ;)

      That's why We like to do a bit of "Zen combat" whenever we meet other Zen practioners. It helps our cultivation to "trust but verify" ;)

      Its very exhilarating to find someone with a much deeper understanding and appreciation than mine. That's how I verify what level I belong to and how much further the road still remains...

      Your journey is fast!

      From "I am ignorant about Zen", to "I can't figure it out", to now "this is my understanding of Zen" ;)

      You have answered your own question :)

      I have played my role as "catalyst".


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